Pondering the complexities of life.

Thursday, June 29

Call me naive

I'm a regular church-going Christian of the Protestant variety. I have fairly regular debates with a friend at work who is Catholic. Don't get me wrong...I'm not one of those Christians who believes the Catholic faith to be something OTHER than Christian. It’s just that I don't understand why so many people insist on calling themselves Catholic and grudgingly following church edicts and traditions that they quickly admit to considering a complete farce.

I certainly don't agree with every idea and belief that is preached at my own church. I don't honestly feel anyone can agree 100% with everything about their church unless they go out and found their own religion. While there may be one Catholic Church, there are many different Protestant churches. Lots of people, from Martin Luther to John Calvin, tried to rid the church of the greedy and self-serving priestly class of the day, in an effort to create a more spiritually pure religion.

For the most part, Protestants are simply not so rigid about what it takes to be considered faithful. Sure, Protestants have some traditions and religious rituals. The difference is that we are quite open about the fact that the rituals are just for show. Communion is a way of remembering and commemorating the last supper. There is nothing magical or spiritual about the bread or the wine. Baptism is just a public display, an indication of your chosen beliefs. (Or in some cases, the chosen beliefs an infant's parents hope to pass down to that child.) Not being baptized in no way condemns anyone. An individual's relationship with God is between that person and God. All that other stuff is just fluff.

And the relationship issue is something we take very seriously. As I'm always telling my Catholic friend, I would NEVER confess my sins to a priest. A priest is just a man. What right does he have to dole out punishment for my sins?? How presumptuous and cocky is that?? What makes him think that telling me to say three "Hail Mary's" makes me square with my maker? What makes him think he has a more direct line to the almighty than I have? I take my confessions, my praises, my requests and my gratitude and deliver them all direct - personally. I will never rely on a live priest or a dead saint to deliver MY important messages to MY God. Not a chance.

What incited today's rant?

My Catholic friend just became engaged. He has been married and divorced and has a six-year-old son who lives with him the majority of the time. His fiancée has never been married. Both are good Irish Catholics from the Commonwealth of Massachusetts. My friend grudgingly, but generously, supports his local parish. This generosity helped to provide a miraculous opening in the exclusive Catholic school where he wanted his child to attend. His continued generosity, as he is quick to explain, insures his child will still have that place next year.

Because his fiancée wants to get married in the church, in Ireland no less, this friend will pay what he calls an "honorarium" to the church, in order to be allowed to remarry in the church.

The Catholic Church doesn't recognize divorces granted by the state. Jesus said, "A man who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery." The Catholic Church takes this idea very seriously.

Or does it?

I asked my friend, "If you pay the church to expunge your previous marriage, what does that make your son? Is he now illegitimate, given that you were never married to his mother in the eyes of your church?"

Now this friend has pretty strict standards, despite his willingness to throw money at whatever establishment he has to appease in order to get things done. He explained that he was very clear with his fiancée that he would not get an annulment for the very reason I suggested. He said that his "generosity" would allow the church to consider him more-or-less a widower, without the messy hassle of having to do away with his first wife. He didn't explain to me exactly how a religious institution could, for a fee, erase a previous marriage or - better still - declare the ex as good as dead! (How many of us have indulged in THAT fantasy at some point?)

My friend explains all these ins-and-outs of the Catholic Church to me with obvious distain, and yet he wouldn't even consider changing his church affiliation. For Catholics in New England, the faith is almost like Judaism to a Jew. It's more of a culture and a heritage than a faith. To me, that's just bizarre.

Equally bizarre is how little most Catholics know about their own religion (Kira being a noted exception). I visited an exhibit in Quebec depicting the twelve Stations of the Cross. I was curious about Veronica. I'd never heard of her before. Since we'd driven to Canada and I had a Bible in the car, I read every single verse describing the crucifixion. Veronica was nowhere. Returning to New England, I questioned my Catholic friends. Not ONE of them knew. I finally located her in one of the Gnostic Gospels - a very minor reference in a writing that was not even considered valid enough during the reign of Constantine to have been included in the Bible. And yet, there she was in the Twelve Stations of the Cross. And, because Mel Gibson is Catholic, she was also included in "The Passion of the Christ." But ask a Catholic where she's mentioned and they won't be able to tell you - although they will be absolutely certain that she's in there somewhere.

We're all a little too certain about what we THINK is in the Bible, aren't we? For instance, before you read "The DaVinci Code", had you ever wondered about Mary Magdalene? Curious by nature, I tried looking up a reference to her sinful life that was mentioned by the assistant pastor at our church once. I discovered that Mary is never described as a prostitute in the Bible. The only possible reference is one in which she declares that Jesus "freed her from her demons." That could mean anything. For some reason, who knows why, Mary has been depicted for centuries as a woman of low moral character who was reformed by Jesus. Forget the whole DaVinci Code conspiracy theory, there's simply no reason to believe that Mary ever turned tricks for a living.

Hmm...my intent was not to bash religion in general. I only meant to make an observation about how little has changed since the days when Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses to the door of that church in Wittenberg.

13 Comments:

Blogger bornfool said...

Wow, WW. You must be worked up. That's the longest post you've written in a long time. :)

Some traditions say that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery, although there is no direct biblical evidence.

12:14 AM

 
Blogger kenju said...

Since I am married to a Catholic who stopped attending Mass after our marriage and didn't go back to it until 25 years later, I wonder a lot of the same things you do. I will show him this post and see what he says, if indeed, he deigns to read it and comment. He calls me anti-Catholic, which I am not, but I also think there is way too much that the average Catholic cannot explain away.

12:37 AM

 
Blogger Kira said...

Well, there are a few major differences in the Catholic faith vs. other Prostestant faiths that might convince a Catholic to remain Catholic despite other differences with the church. For instance, the belief in purgatory alongside heaven and hell is not found in any protestant faith that I can recall offhand (please, somebody correct me if I'm wrong). As far as I know, the belief in purgatory by Catholics boils down to references in the book of Macabees (which Protestant bibles don't have...that was one of the books removed for the King James version) and a difference in the idea where the punctuation goes in a sentence in Luke (which nobody can be right or wrong on because PUNCTUATION DOES NOT EXIST IN ANCIENT LANGUAGES like hebrew and aramaic, and so all translators put the commas and all where they want and believe...they aren't there on the originals). One punctuated version supports the idea of a purgatory; the other does not. If a belief in purgatory is essential to your perception of the afterlife, perhaps you'd put up with some of the normal human fallacies that happen when people run the church in order to follow a philosophy that espouses it.

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Catholics view their pope as infallable on ALL matters. That's bullshit. The pope is only infallable on essential pieces of dogma, NOT doctrine. There's only been a handful of times a pope has spoken out about dogma using infallibility. What does this mean? Well, guess what! This means that the Catholic church screws up at the same rate as all other churches that are run by men and women rather than God. Remarkable. There are just way more screw ups to point at since it's been around so much longer.

I have never heard of this honorariam stuff. All I know of is that you can apply for an annulment. There is no divorce. Yes, the annulment raises very uncomfortable questions about the status of the children...if the church is saying that the marriage never existed, then what does that mean for the kids? However, in my parent's diocese (Tampa, Florida) and all that I am familiar with in SC, we just don't have this honorarium option. It's an annulment that you have to apply for...and will likely get turned down for. You should see the damned application and the five thousand questions that are asked. My parents--wealthy Catholics who donate too much money to the church--inquired about the annulment stuff because they are determined that Alex and I marry in the church sooner or later. If there were another option typically given to a straight annulment, I'm sure they'd present to their top donors a choice like that ;) That doesn't mean this honorarium doesn't exist...I just have never heard fo it nor really know what it is. Typically, you can't be given an annulment for irreconcilable differences, no matter HOW much money you have (although I'm not ignorant enough to think it never happens...I guess it would depend on the diocese). There have to be specific criteria met like abuse or whatnot. What does this mean for a divorced Catholic? Well, it means that remarriage does not take place in the church, but that you can get a blessing from the priest regardless. You just can't have a full mass wedding at the altar.

As far as confession goes, I should email you the rather lengthy story on why I believe it has its place. I didn't come to grips with the realization that confession WAS a good thing until I was in my 30's...which would be why I hadn't gone since I was a teen ;) The root of it is this, Mandy...I've observed very clearly that over the years, many people find it impossible to forgive themselves although they can forgive other people. There is something about going through that ritual of having somebody else tell you you're forgiven that sometimes allows one to emotionally process it in a way that just praying straight to God doesn't. If you are the type of person who can pray to God, ask for forgiveness, and then forgive yourself and move on...yay! I'm happy for you. But I've met so many who seem to beat themselves up until they are TOLD by somebody--not a friend or a random stranger, but somebody who seems to speak with God in his heart--that they ARE forgiven. Call it human weakness if you want, but I've seen it work too many times to knock it.

Part of the problem too is that the Catholic church is just so damned old that there are pieces of old traditions and histories that just don't seem to fit in to the modern church (like Veronica, who is not mentioned in scripture as you pointed out...but IS honored as a saint, so technically it's St. Veronica). Other Protestant churches weren't even "allowed" to exist until the 1500's, so that's one thousand five hundred years of jump start on red tape and tradition and such.

If you have any specific questions, though, Mandy...please email me and let me fire away at it! I feel like I am more aware of Catholicism than most Catholics are, so I should be able to help out with questions. I hope. I DO believe that very few people believe 100% of what their church tells them to believe, and that includes Catholics alongside all the other Christians in the world. So, in asking me, you might sometimes hear me snort because I think something's retarded...but I would never dream of knocking somebody's beliefs even if they don't make sense to me. As long as it doesn't involve "murder for God" or other ridiculous prospects, I don't care what religion people are or how they choose to follow it. Oh, and Catholics do NOT worship Mary and the saints. I just have to throw that one in because it always pisses me off when some random person asks me how I can worship Mary or the saints like they're gods. Um, if it's ok for you to ask your friends to pray for you, it's ok for us to also ask Mary and the saints to pray for us too. That's not worship...unless you want to say you're worshiping all those friends you ask to pray for you too.

Also, did you know that there is a committee that has as its aim to reunify some of the protestant churches with the catholic church? They've already made a lot of headway as far as how they decided to approach Mary, and now they're working on Holy Communion. I think it's the Lutherans, the Episcopals/Anglicans, and the Methodists. I'd have to look back on Ariana's baptism certificate because it has all the names of the protestant churches along with the catholic church because they already have agreed on what baptism means...so they can do that one in the name of all those churches.

Ok, so there you go. I hope that helps, but if it doesn't, email me!!!!! I'd be happy to talk this out with you just so you understand the logic (or lack thereof) behind certain beliefs or rituals in the church.

6:18 AM

 
Blogger WordWhiz said...

BF: That is certainly how she is depicted in the Mel Gibson film - as the woman Jesus saved from being stoned.

Kenju: Maybe it's a factor of where I live, but I see some many people who both distain and cling to their affiliation with the Catholic church. Having spent time affiliated to several different Protestant churches, I can't relate to the need to maintain solid ties to something for which I hold contempt.

Kira: You solidly proved my point that you were the exception to the rule! I will have to respond more adequately later, as it is 6:30 AM and I'm trying to leave for work! Thanks for your educated comments to my rambling rant!!

6:39 AM

 
Blogger Kira said...

No problem! I just proved how much I love you by posting all that publically, though...I will talk about ANYTHING publically, even the most embarrassing stuff, except (typically) religion because it's just the most personal thing in my life. I feel like I expose myself on a rock and wait for people to start shooting darts into me when I open my mouth up about religious issues!

I'm with you on the "if you disagree with too much, find a new church" philosophy. I haven't been Catholic all my life, and that'd be the reason why. I don't know why folks are so scared to leave the family religion or the place where they were raised...if your heart is not in it, your heart is not in it! Showing up doesn't make you believe. What's inside makes you show up. Or at least that's the way it's supposed to work.

2:17 PM

 
Blogger OldHorsetailSnake said...

Too bad Martin didn't have this one. Then he would have had 96. On his way, of course, to 666.

2:25 PM

 
Blogger Kira said...

Oohh sorry, I just have one more comment here...I re-read your post, and although I totally agree with you that the main difference of the protestant vs. catholic church there is the intermediary between God and man (which has its roots in the illiteracy of the majority of the people and therefore the necessity of the priest to read the Bible and share it with his flock...see historically Margery Kempe, for instance, a wealthy medieval woman who never could read, but knew her scripture damn well because she listened and learned in church) with the Catholics and the Protestants believe in direct communication, the Protestants vary tremendously on how they view communion.

Here:

The three major theological theories of the presence of Christ in the elements of the Eucharist are:

Transubstantiation: The bread and wine are transformed by the sacrament into the body and blood of Christ. (Catholic)

Consubstantiation: The actual bread and wine remains bread and wine, but the body and blood of Christ are present "in, with, and amidst" ("im, mit und unter") the bread and wine. (Luther: present day Lutherans, Episcopals)

Symbolic: Christ is not really present; Christ is in heaven. The bread and wine are symbols, to remind us of Christ, for he said: "Do this in rememberance of me".(Calvin: other Protestants)

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=communion

So, SOME Protestants still believe that communion is special and not symbolic...but they still view it as special in a DIFFERENT way as Catholics....

Ok, I should shut up now. The differences in the various forms of Christianity have always facinated me, plus I have eleven years of Catholic schooling behind me...I will force myself to now be quiet :) (we'll see how long that lasts!)

2:31 PM

 
Blogger Seven Star Hand said...

Hello all,

Most have totally missed the point that the Hebrew and Gnostic texts and others are making. First, they refer to symbolic males and females, hence the philosophical masculine and feminine nature and character. All the Gnostic texts are philosophical and symbolic treatises, not literal narratives. When you try to interpret any of these ancient texts (including the Bible) as literal, you will always come to the wrong conclusions.

Mary and Sophia are parallel symbolic allegories and personifications of the feminine nature of wisdom and the Seven Spirits of God, which are the philosophically feminine character (not literal). This is the point that all of these texts and hidden codes are alluding to. The creator is properly viewed as philosophically feminine in nature and character (truth, wisdom, compassion, freewill, etc.), not as masculine, which includes greed, materialism, force, and coercion.

Likewise, the symbolism of Mary as a prostitute flows from discussions of wisdom becoming the harlot, hence ancient wisdom and philosophy being recast as religion over the ages. As in the symbology of the Apocalypse, women are wisdom-philosophy focused organizations and harlots symbolize religions that have chosen money and power over wisdom and compassion, hence the three faiths of Abraham. Mary's daughter's name Sarah is actually referring to Sirach and symbolizing the Gnostic movement that grew out of the Yahad/Essene movement after Rome scattered them from Judea (to Egypt and elsewhere).

You will not initially agree with everything I reveal, but please be a little patient with my long-winded presentation of what I have waited a very long time to be able to say. I promise to amaze and enlighten.

Pay close attention, profundity knocks at the door (again), listen for the key. Be Aware! Scoffing is blindness...

Read verse twelve of the Gospel of Thomas to understand who I am...

Contrary to those who strive to assert that the DaVinci Code created the term, symbology is an ancient philosophical technology and I am a real life symbologist. Likewise, the upper-level members of secret societies such as Freemasons, Rosicrucians, Illumanti, and the Vatican are symbologists. Keeping their "craft" secretive and misunderstood is a purposeful ploy designed to hide the truth about ancient wisdom and the symbology used to model, encapsulate, and encode it. The title "mason" is itself a symbolic allusion to those who work with the "Philosophers' Stone" which is the symbolic name given to an ancient body of symbology, hence "mason" refers to workers of symbolic "stone."

Read Proverbs 9:1 below to better understand this situation.

Wisdom has built Her house. She has carved out Her seven pillars.

Notice that "wisdom" is referred to as "Her" and "She", as in Sophia and Miriam (the Magdala), and that "She" has "hewn" "Her" "seven pillars" (of stone)? Read my Home Page to see what those seven pillars of "stone" have always referred to, contrary to what religions and mysticism have said for millennia. Do a search through Proverbs for wisdom, she, and her in a searchable Bible and compare these to the Dead Sea Scroll (4Q184) (Seductress) on page 195 of Geza Vermes "The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls in English." There are similar allusions in other books and texts. You can see the transformation of the feminine wisdom/compassion (Sophia, Miriam, Kuan Yin, etc.) into the Seductress/Harlot of this Dead Sea Scroll and the Apocalypse (Revelation).

Not only do I talk the talk, I walk the walk...
Here is Wisdom!!

Revelations from the Apocalypse

Peace...

9:01 AM

 
Blogger Paul Nichols said...

Hi. I don't suppose you could have written something like this and not expected me to comment. I can't resist.

First, in your third paragraph you aren't correct when you say that Communion is a memorial of the Last Supper. Communion is a time for us to remember what Jesus did for us on the cross. A time to remember and reflect that his body was beaten and pierced; that his blood was spilled out for our redemption and for the forgiveness of our sins. On the cross he forever replaced the sacrificial lamb and forever substituted himself in our place so that we can have eternal fellowship with God.

BF is right. There is a lot of historical evidence to indicate that Mary Magdalene was the woman caught in adultery. It's just not in Scripture.

Times have changed A LOT since Martin Luther wrote his 95 thesis. For instance, there are many, many protestant churches now when none existed at the time. How the Catholic church has changed, I can't say cuz I ain't one.

The most important thing of all, though, is how our heart lines up with Jesus. Doesn't matter where you go to church.

A good post. Thanks for letting me rant, too--er, I mean comment.

1:49 PM

 
Blogger poopie said...

Ever since "The Last Temptation of Christ" I have been of the mindset that Mary Magdalene was a much bigger player than we ever imagined. While the rest of the world was having a stroke over the insinuation that she and Jesus had a thing, it helped to define his humanity to me even more clearly.

4:22 PM

 
Blogger Big Dave T said...

Going through your comments here, I'm reminded why I try to steer clear of religion or politics on my own blog.

But I agree with what you say, and I'm a Catholic too. Went to church today.

My own opinion is that it's often easy to find fault with our church and its teachings. But it's not my church's teachings in the aggregate that keeps me going to mass on Sunday. If I find just one spiritual inspiration in the minister's sermon, something that stays with me for the week, I think it was worth going.

12:25 PM

 
Blogger Monique said...

You have touched on so many things that my sister-in-law and I have been discussing during our weekly bible study! It's to find scriptural basis for a lot of Catholic doctrine and traditions, but I'm sure that's true for many Protestant denominations as well.

In the end, though, Paul is right. It's about whether your heart is right with Jesus. I don't believe all the other stuff is going to get you into heaven or keep you out of it, as long as we are rooted in scripture as our guide for how to live our lives and accept the truth of the sacrifice Christ made for all of us.

9:35 AM

 
Blogger Ontario Emperor said...

"For the most part, Protestants are simply not so rigid about what it takes to be considered faithful."

Speaking as a Protestant (Lutheran), I have to disagree. It's not just the Catholics who have substantial debates on issues. One of your responders already alluded to differing beliefs among Protestants regarding Communion. In addition, there are major debates regarding items such as the age of baptism, the day on which Christians should worship, the consumption of alcoholic beverages by Christians, etc. Remember that the myriad of Protestant churches that have emerged were primarily because of some point of doctrine or emphasis, and that it has even led to the establishment of churches that are firmly outside of orthodox Christianity (Latter Day Saints, Watchtower, the initial theology of the Worldwide Church of God, etc.). Even within denominations there are divisions (Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian) about various issues.

As an example, Lutheran doctrine includes the concept of the "true visible church" (as distinguished from the invisible church of all believers). This is the idea that there is only one church that is doctrinally correct, and that all other churches are in some error or another. Guess which church the Lutheran Church believes is the one true visible church? (Think hard.)

10:50 AM

 

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